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Post by johnknee on Aug 7, 2011 14:13:01 GMT 1
Not sure how an inexperienced player can "know" his inexperienced referee, certainly do hope the ref. learnt from his league debut as I felt he was very inconsistent, allowing far too many infringements by Spencer to go unchecked, then straight red for Rooney, albeit an amber, am convinced the Cheltenham reaction earned Rooney his red as much as Rooney's own action. No league referee is 'inexperienced'. He might not have refereed in a league match before but he would have refereed plenty of matches at various levels prior to being promoted to being a league match referee. To be honest, I didn't think most of the infringements by Spencer were really that bad - fouls yes, but........ Most of them came about when Frampton and Lawrence (especially) deliberately cut across his path to check his run and he ran into them. Both of our defenders knew exactly what they were doing and were looking to buy the fouls. Although Spencer did nudge a few times back naughtily a few times, but then again, Lawrence was equally bad in the off the ball nudging and other dark arts. But of course Lawrence is our player so can be excused for this but their player can't. Rooney cannot be excused. If it happened on the edge of our area to stop the opposition from getting a shot on goal then you can maybe say he took one for the team, but on the edge of their area when we were 1-0 up, cruising and comfortable? Inexcusable. I'm sure people will point out Rooney's age and say he'll learn. Am I right in thinking it'll be a three match ban? If so, he had handed the advantage to Weston in terms of replacing Spiller....
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Post by tommyt on Aug 7, 2011 16:10:59 GMT 1
Just can't see how Jack Payne got any marks for yesterdays lame effort!
He spends all game taking the ball off the centre back only to pass to the other centre back. Nothing went forward just sideways and back! He slowed the game to a point where Gills had no tempo whatsoever and at least 5 times lost the ball trying to overdo it in a dangerous positions and we only got away with it as the opposition wasn't the best. He never once had a glance over his shoulder to see he could move forward 20 yards before releasing a more positive pass. He put others under pressure and i just can't see what he brings the team.
We were better without him last season and will be again this season as Charlie Lee is miles better in the position and distributing the ball with Montrose and Weston playing more attacking and linking up with Kedwell.
As for Rooney i still think he needs to go away to a conference team have a full season and learn the game! He still plays football like an 8 year old chasing the ball all over the pitch, not holding a position and trying to overdo it. I personally don't think he's good enough but if he goes on loan and proves himself i'll be happy to admit i was wrong.
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Post by johnknee on Aug 7, 2011 16:16:52 GMT 1
So what you are saying tommeyT is that Jack Payne is the new Maher?
Payne did ok... on the whole neat and tidy, broke up a few challenges but was maybe overshadowed by other players....
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Post by tommyt on Aug 7, 2011 16:35:59 GMT 1
Payne was awful!!! If neat and tidy is going nowhere with the ball, putting his own players under pressure with his passing, losing possession in dangerous areas and not once venturing forward with the ball even when there is 20 yards to take the ball into. Then i suppose he was neat and tidy!!
No i said we were better when Maher played instead of Payne last season. The results prove it and that if we want to play a player in that role then Charlie Lee is in a different league to Jack Payne in that position!
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Post by jaybo on Aug 7, 2011 17:18:49 GMT 1
Payne did his job to stop Cheltenham attacks which as a whole we did very well and looked solid at the back however, in some games we need more going forward and thats when the 3 of payne, montorse and lee doesn't work because you need weston for example in there. However, especially away from home, those 3 will be very effective and I can't see us conceding many goals this year.
Finally, get used to 1-0 wins.
UTG!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 17:25:00 GMT 1
Sorry, but the comments about Payne are a classic of someone not understanding the game. Jack did get caught in possession a couple of times, but he also did a lot of the dirty work and I remember one cross field 40 yard pass he played in the 2nd half. Every team needs a genuine holding midfielder. You play only with players who vacate midfield, like Weston, and you get beaten. If you play Weston and Monty in the same team, Monty would have to be the holding player. BTW, guessing you didn't see us in pre-season when Jack did very well
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Post by tommyt on Aug 7, 2011 21:30:47 GMT 1
I disagree with hessisgod! That can't be allowed! I don't understand football!! I've done a decent level coaching badge mate! And no where in the course do they teach backward and sideways passing! Its forward passing! Forward runs! In fact positive football! Yes he may tackle but you need to get your head out the sand He has potential but Lee is a better holding player! Has better vision and more strength! And occasionally goes forward with the ball when there's space! As for pre season I for one heard Hess everytime he got the ball at Ashford encouraging him to play forward! If u keep going backwards and sideways u slow the game down lose the tempo and allow teams to get behind the ball and organise! But heh what do I know!
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Post by superblues on Aug 7, 2011 21:33:22 GMT 1
No i said we were better when Maher played instead of Payne last season. The results prove it and that if we want to play a player in that role then Charlie Lee is in a different league to Jack Payne in that position! Surely Hessisgod you can't accuse someone of a 'classic example of not understanding football' whan the poster has made the time and effort to make a valid and reasonable point? I don't mind Jack Payne but sometimes I do think maybe he needs to look forward once in a while. I went to the Ashford game where he picked the ball up off one centre half and gave it to the other. He did the same today.....if, or when, we get another striker Payne should be the one that misses out because, as tommyt says, Lee would be able to do that job and do it better. This is another classic example of people not listening to other peoples opinions but casting them off as 'people who don't know anything'. Tommyt may well have played football at a decent level or be a qualified coach for all we know but no he has a different opinion so he 'knows nothing!!'.....and click a negative Karma for good measure!! Thats Tommyt, me and Jaggy for it then!!!!
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Post by superblues on Aug 7, 2011 21:34:43 GMT 1
see above....looks like our posts crossed!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2011 22:13:24 GMT 1
The idea that a player should only play the ball forward and run forward is daft. Look at some of the great Italian sides of the 80s and 90s or how a lot of international teams play. They understand the importance of ball retention. How about barca? Busquets in that side plays a similar role to Payne and often plays the ball sideways and backwards in order to retain possession. Maybe Jack can't always play it forward because the movement from our players isn't good enough. I'd rather Jack play the ball backwards rather than "do a Maher" by hoofing it 20 yards forward into the channels into space and surrender possession to the opposition. Sorry if the comment about you not understanding football was a touch harsh, maybe my footballing philosophy is different to yours, but I grew up watching the great Livepool sides passing sideways and backwards and wearing teams out. Patience is important and I get sick of the Priestfield crowd sometimes wanting the ball hoofed aimlessly forward
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Post by johnknee on Aug 8, 2011 7:13:06 GMT 1
I disagree with hessisgod! That can't be allowed! I don't understand football!! I've done a decent level coaching badge mate! And no where in the course do they teach backward and sideways passing! Its forward passing! Forward runs! In fact positive football! Yes he may tackle but you need to get your head out the sand He has potential but Lee is a better holding player! Has better vision and more strength! And occasionally goes forward with the ball when there's space! As for pre season I for one heard Hess everytime he got the ball at Ashford encouraging him to play forward! If u keep going backwards and sideways u slow the game down lose the tempo and allow teams to get behind the ball and organise! But heh what do I know! In english, it is the commonly accepted practice to end sentences with fullstops (the " ." key) rather than exclamation marks (the " !" key). If you use an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence, the impact from the exclamation mark tends to lose its effect. I was always taught that it is better to pass the ball forward if you can, but if you have no realistic options then it is better to pass it sidewards and keep possession than to effectively mindlessly hoof it forward and give the ball away. Passing sideways might be seen to slow the game down, but if you keep possession then the option to set the tempo is in your power. It is no wonder England have won nothing if everyone taking coaching badges is told to basically kick the ball forward everytime one of your players gets the ball.
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Post by superblues on Aug 8, 2011 7:26:08 GMT 1
I realise people have different views and I understand people rate players higher than others but occassionally Payne has got to look forward surely you have to admit that? I didn't quite agree with the Maher comments as his 'hoofs' created quite a few chances last year. Also, in Mahers defence, what options did Maher have, he had Weston who was shocking last year, Barcham (sometimes) who was no better and Payne who was either next to him or behind him and no width the other side as Spiller was mostly next to him as well. If a ball gets put into space behind their full back and you have a willing runner like Cody to close him down, immediately their full back is facing his own goal in an area of the pitch he doesn't want to be in. I had no problem with Maher at all doing this last year. Football to certain degree is about options and movement...last season there wasn't a lot of this in our midfield.
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Post by The Cat Man on Aug 8, 2011 9:16:02 GMT 1
And so to a cloudy day in Gillingham, expectations high for an easy win versus Cheltenham. Classic first game , we have the talent, they worked hard and were in our faces, mildly knocking us out of our stride.
Flitney - 7 - one superb save but flapped and missed a punch by a yard, did however mange to take Martin out
Martin - 7 - solid , a good player, sound defender, wasn`t ever under pressure
Fuller - 6 - hardly went over the halfway line...defend Barry - thats your job, did ok, all attacks in the first half we against him
Frampton - 7 - not a bad first performance, hard defender, an organiser, looked like he could do with a yard of pace
Lawrence -7 - bit of a tussle with their young striker, when down when hardkly touched, we`d miss him if he wasn`t there
Spiller - 6 - worked hard, didn`t do much of significance, having seen him player really well pre season, i expected more
Payne - 6 - some neat touches, ok first half drifted out of the game in the second..he will come good
Montrose - 6 - Scored, ran around a lot, didn`t have impact i`d seen pre season
Whelpdale - 6 - obviously he is a class act, fine shot in first half, like Jack Payne, he will come good
Lee - 6 - put himself about, couple of crunching tackles, wouldn`t want to play against him
Kedwell - 6 - another who worked hard, very right footed, i don`t think he`ll score that many playing upfront on his own
Rooney - 3 - inexperience...a stupid challenge...as others have said made the ref make a decision, it wasn`t the worst challenge you`ll see but with the reaction from the Cheltenham players there was always the chance he was `off `...he has bags of talent, bags of ability..this a big season for Luke, he was given 30 mins, Hess gave him a chance, hope this is one big learning thing.
Weston - 7.5 -MOM - I am a Curtis fan, great cameo performance - has to start - playing just off Kedwell - perfect for him...hopefully will show Rooney what a sub/impact player should do...didn`t start, didn`t start , didn`t moan , just got on with it.
Cheltenham worked hard, they are not a great side, but they care.
The CatMan...sort it out Hess
The CatMan
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Post by tommyt on Aug 8, 2011 13:12:44 GMT 1
It does make me laugh how people on this site try to discredit everything others say.
You try to discredit coaching badges. How funny when the FA think there of big future importance to develop the kids of the future. Of course in every walk of football you try to retain possession, obviously you have to at times pass sideways and back. But the teams mentioned also played with tempo and looked to stretch and hurt sides whenever they could. Even when the opportunity was there it was like Payne refused to notice or wasn't aware that the space was there. i have no problems with Payne i hink he can be a good footballer but the role of a defensive midfielder isn't just to take it off one centre back and give it to the other. He was starting to get in their way, lose possession as much as he won it and even when we had freekicks he was looking for a 2 yard pass. Football is all about mixing it up a bit surely especially at lower league level, so you become unpredictable. Surely now we have a bigger side does it hurt to put a freekick into the box once in a while? its still a known fact that a massive percentage of goals come through set pieces. Because of Payne we played at too slow a tempo an instead of trying to come out the blocks quickly we let a poor Cheltenham settle. When did we have our first shot of any worth? Every good team has a tempo to their game and at times try and turn the opposition as if you play in front of them it allows any team to keep shape. All good sides set out to intimidate the opposition and be at them from the off. I feel playing that way all we will ever see is 1 0, 0 0 or 0 1. The players we have are better than that and i feel we should be making a statement in this division as all decent sides do by getting at teams early, having a few shots and testing the keeper, occasionally going short, occasionally going long, running at people. pressing high up the pitch when possible and generally trying to get teams stretched and on the back foot.
I just want to see Gills playing to the full potential of the players. We can boss games in this division and put fear into sides by taking them on a bit more. It gets the crowd buzzing. Any good side hands out the odd hammering to a side i just can't see that in the tempo or way we play at present.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2011 13:28:04 GMT 1
Everyone has different views, but I loved the fact we were taking short free kicks and keeping posession rather than hoofing into the box from distance. How many goals did we score last season by doing that? I can't remember one.
superblues - you say Maher had to hoof it last season because he had no movement or options. Are you suggesting Payne had this on Saturday?
2 things to throw into the debate (and its a good one) - 1. I've given an example of where Payne played the ball forward to good effect with a 40+ yard pass to Whelpdale. I'm sure there were other occasions when he passed the ball forward as well. Isn't the strength of a good player an ability to decide when to play forward and when to keep the ball? I wonder how many options Jack had in a very congested midfield to play forward every time?
2. Remember Claude Makelele? I seem to remember him playing a lot of sideways balls. How well did Real Madrid do when the sold him and thought they didn't need a defensive midfielder?
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