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Post by The Cat Man on Aug 10, 2011 9:41:25 GMT 1
Excellent drive to Brighton, no problems at all, parked fish and chips couple of beers then jumped on the free train ride from Brighton to Falmer..all going well.
This is a nice stadium, main stand is amazing , one of if not the best I`ve seen. The rest a touch disappointing given expectations, but a few light years better than the Withdean and still decent. Away facilities top rate, so we sat near the back on our cushioned seats. Good away support over 1300...very noisey and for long periods totally outsung the home lads.
Fliney - 7 - another good performance, handling from crosses first rate, caught everything. Didn`t have a great save to make but in contrast to Julian he gives the defence confidence.
Fuller - 6 - Worked hard, silly booking in dangerous area, was opposte a good player...Barry was not helped at all by Whelpdale, who had a bad night
Martin - 7 - Sound all night, played against a tricky opponent , was helped by Spiller...team work
Frampton - 8 - The leader, lost it when Barry caught one in the face, their striker had every right to go for it. I like this guy, good signing.
Lawrence - 7 - Typical Lawrence performance
Lee - 8 - Was involved in everything in the middle of the park, this is more like it
Payne - 7 - couple of cheeky tugs on shirts, mr professional foul, did a sound job
Montrose - 7 - apart from goal on saturday was quiet, tonight looked the part...would like to see him use his height more.
Whelpdale - 5 - Didn`t protect Barry, gave the ball away too cheaply..he`s so much better than this
Spiller - 7 - can`t fault his work rate, he and Martin played well on left hand side
Kedwell - 6 - Jury is out - not sure yet, certainly works hard, he`s too slow and touch average...doesn`t look dangerous. Had a couple of chances, has to start hitting the target
Subs Weston - 7 - looked busy, should start at the weekend, playing behind Kedwell
Payne - 7 - I haven`t been a fan, but he looked quick and up for it. He was pushed and pulled all over the place, they were worried about his pace.
Fish - 7 - Good intro to Gills, quick and passed well. Was unlucky to be called back having made opening,
Hess - 7- Well done, didn`t lose his head unlike Poyet (what was he doing 15 yards on the pitch - booking ?)...ok at times Brighton did look two leagues above, but overall a sound performance, decent shape, great attitude, on another day we would have got a draw.
Not enough trains after the game
The CatMan...sort it out Hess
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Post by nickthehoover on Aug 10, 2011 10:49:43 GMT 1
I was very, very impressed with the performance, especially in the first half. Our defensive shape was outstanding and not once did they manage to break us down and create a clear cut chance. Yes they had a couple of half chances but they were the types that you would say well done to them rather than criticise our defending had they gone in.
It was very clear we had a game plan, with a flat back 4 and Payne monitoring the whole with liitle adventure from the remaining 4 midfield players. And this worked very very well as while we lacked possession, with a striker like Kedwell up front it meant that we were not always camped on our own 18 yard box.
What was disappointing was that after we had conceded both teams lost their heads and it got a little scrappy. But regardless we can come away with our heads held high after that as I thought we were tremendous in defence yesterday, and Brighton did not look 2 divisions better than us at all.
Player Ratings:
Flitney 8 - Very good in coming for crosses. Didn't have many saves to make but was solid in handling and kicking was better than Saturday. Miles better than Julian - and looks an excellent bit of business by Hessenthaler.
Fuller 5 - When Buckley moved left he roasted Fuller, however he will not be facing that calibre of opponent every game in League 2. The big test for Barry will be against Byron Moore for Crewe on Saturday who well and truly had the beating of him at Priestfield last season
Lawrence 7 - Mr Dependable once again. Positioning was great and used his brain to make up for a lack of pace
Frampton 8 - Excellent on the ball for a centre half, and defended fantastically throughout the game.
Martin 8 - He has really impressed me so far this season. Quite often Noone would be 1 on 1 against him and he would more than hold his own.
J.Payne 7 - Very clever in possession through recycling it well and going forward when possible. However I would have liked to see him protect the full backs a little bit more when Noone/Buckley were running at Fuller/Martin.
Whelpdale 4 - Lost possession in dangerous areas 3 times at least in the first half and never got going in attack. However he has very good feet for a tall player and should be too good for L2
Lee 8 - Very good, got stuck in without being reckless and offered support in attack where possible. Shame he had to be substituted.
Montrose 6 - Quiet. Not much more to say really.
Spiller 7 - His distribution was pretty good and with the ball at feet he looked dangerous. If he would stick to the left wing then it would be much more effective and mean we would have a more balanced build up play, hence making us more creative
Kedwell 8 - His hold up play is of a similar quality to Akinfenwa, but has the added benefit of being able to move. Fed of scraps for most of the game but caused Greer and Dunk, better than the level of defenders in League 2 plenty of problems.
Subs: Weston 6 - Didn't make the impact he did on Saturday
S.Payne 7 - Looked lively, maybe this could be his breakthrough season as an impact player from the bench in the absense of Birchall. However would advise him not to tackle, as he should have gone.
Fish ? - Too little time to make an impact
Hessenthaler 9 - The defensive shape of the team was excellent and stopped Brighton penetrating with their clever movement off the ball. Went 2 up front when we needed a goal, hence meaning that territorially e would have more of an advantage. Also with a team as big of ours we did go long ball when possible, but also played on the ground at times. Only thing I would like to see is better attacking set pieces, as with a team with the height of ours we should be doing better than we are
Referee Malone 7 - First half he did everything right. However should have sent Stefan Payne off, and in the build up to the pen there could have been a foul on Spiller? But, he wasn't afraid to issue cards for dissent (Ankergren, Painter, Martin) which is always good to see and got most of the yellows, apart from Kedwell right.
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Post by jaggysnake on Aug 10, 2011 11:12:44 GMT 1
Nine out of 10 for the manager after a defeat?
Christ.
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Post by johnknee on Aug 10, 2011 12:16:13 GMT 1
Nine out of 10 for the manager after a defeat? Christ. I cannot say if 9 out of ten is correct, but when you consider we only lost 1-0 away to a team that on paper is vastly superior to us - thanks to what many have said was a soft penalty, then I am not surprised the manager will get a high mark. Not unless the manager got the team completely wrong but played well despite the manager's tactics.... So how do you rate the manager? Start with a base score of 5, then add 3 for a win, minus three for a defeat and then add or reduce based upon the goal difference?? So yesterday you think Hess's score was 4 or something for a narrow 1-0 defeat? Or something like that?
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Post by jaggysnake on Aug 10, 2011 13:19:16 GMT 1
A 10 out of 10 means EVERYTHING has gone absolutely perfectly and nothing has gone wrong at all. A win last night would have been a 9 or 10 out of 10, depending on the score. If we'd scored two goals after going 1-0 down thanks to Hessenthaler's substitutions and change of emphasis, that's a 10/10. A 9/10 is the next best thing to that. Was he really that good?
Not being funny, but regardless of the opposition, we had seven players booked, lost and didn't create a wealth of chances. For a 10/10, I'd have wanted Brighton outplayed, so the fact we were on the back foot for large portions suggests 9/10 is OTT. Most reports I've read say that Spiller was not much cop, there was little width, we need another striker. Even the man chucking out the high score says we need to do more from set-pieces.
I wouldn't even know where to start with rating the manager, but to say that his performance was 10% away from being absolutely flawless seems a bit on the ridiculous side to me...
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Post by Greyfox on Aug 10, 2011 14:27:04 GMT 1
A 10 out of 10 means EVERYTHING has gone absolutely perfectly and nothing has gone wrong at all. A win last night would have been a 9 or 10 out of 10, depending on the score. If we'd scored two goals after going 1-0 down thanks to Hessenthaler's substitutions and change of emphasis, that's a 10/10. A 9/10 is the next best thing to that. Was he really that good? Not being funny, but regardless of the opposition, we had seven players booked, lost and didn't create a wealth of chances. For a 10/10, I'd have wanted Brighton outplayed, so the fact we were on the back foot for large portions suggests 9/10 is OTT. Most reports I've read say that Spiller was not much cop, there was little width, we need another striker. Even the man chucking out the high score says we need to do more from set-pieces. I wouldn't even know where to start with rating the manager, but to say that his performance was 10% away from being absolutely flawless seems a bit on the ridiculous side to me... Jaggysnake, you crack me up. You are absolutely correct about the striker situation and I give you credit as you've been saying it for a couple of months now. However, the team also has been a weak unit defensively for a couple of seasons and last season we leaked goals in important games, especially at the end, conceding 8 in the last 2 home games. Gillingham needed to address this and in my opinion ( although I admit it's still early days ) they have. I know you say it's nearly the same back four as last year, but having Frampton as captain and Martin fully fit has made a difference this season. The weak link might be Fuller who could lose his place to Fish on last nights showing. Lee and Montrose are also much stronger in front of the back four. It might take a few bookings on the way, but so what. I didn't like us conceding 7 goals either. As I said, I went to Brighton. We weren't outplayed, stood up to a very good team and in fact made 4 very good chances to score from open play. Yes, we lost as you point out and of course that's what matters at the end of the day. 9/10 for Hess is much to high. But I give him 6/7 because he has at long last started to address our defensive frailties. Yes, we did start to look under pressure in the last 15 minutes but by then we were pushing players forward. However, until their goal we looked solid.
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Post by jaggysnake on Aug 10, 2011 14:40:24 GMT 1
So after all that, you essentially agree with the point I was making.
I'm not being negative, I'm just worried. If we carry on like this, by the start of September we'll have had four players suspended. Which would be shameful. I personally don't think you can build a solid team if you have to keep changing it due to suspensions...
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Post by johnknee on Aug 10, 2011 14:56:14 GMT 1
It might take a few bookings on the way, but so what. I didn't like us conceding 7 goals either. It is a question of balance... If Lawrence or Frampton are suspended, then in comes the often critisised Richards or the unknown current ability of King. If Lee or Montrose are suspended then in comes Jackman who people are split about. If Kedwell gets suspended then we have Oli or Payne to lead the line.... We have a good team, but in some areas of the pitch, our depth is questionable despite numbers. And not all of our bookings are from being combatitive on the pitch. Signs are we'll pick up a lot of bookings for arguing and the aggressive influence of the likes of Lawrence and Frampton could lead to the younger players like the two Paynes and Rooney seeing red - we've picked up one, maybe should have had another and the other Payne has put in a few solid challenges but not stepped over the edge yet...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 15:20:01 GMT 1
Another entertaining description from the Catman. In terms of the discipline debate, I think most people will accept the Jack Payne booking - a very good professional foul, but will be very disappointed with the bookings for dissent, which frankly are a waste of a card. Musn't lose sight of the fact last night that the ref was card happy with his yellows, though he also did us a favour in not sending off Stefan Payne (or Fuller, who tackled after he was booked on the slide and the ref pointed to a corner. I had a great view and it was a foul and 2nd yellow and Fuller had a massive smile on his face as he knew it). In terms of Hess, why are we splitting hairs on whether he should get a 6,7 or 9? Who cares. The manager picked a team that did a good job, could have won the game with more luck or at worst gone to extra time without a poor decision from the ref for the penalty. At the end of the day, we competed with a side who strolled League 1 last year and have added some good players - Buckley for one who was £1mill and the best player on the park. Lets forget about semantics, and give Hess a pat on the back for a good performance.
In terms of the team, my ratings:
Flitney 8 - Very solid, couple of good saves and good kicking. Commanded his box well and caught some difficult crosses. Only beaten by a penalty in opening 2 games - promising. Fuller 4 - Got destroyed by Buckley and lucky to be on the pitch at half time. To be fair to him, little protection from others. Martin 8 - Defensively excellent, got forward well again when able to. Would have been a 9 but marked down for booking for dissent - stupid. Frampton 8 - Leaders performance, gutsy, blocked well, won a lot in the air. Marked him down from a 9 as we lost possession when he got forward once and also as captain, he needs to set an example when dealing with the ref. Lawrence 8 - As Frampton. These two are a superb partnership for league 2, and possibly above Whelpdale 6 - He's going to score goals given the way he cuts inside and also got a couple of useful balls into the box. Where he's disappointed me a little in first 2 games is that I remember his engine being better and him getting up and down the pitch more than he has so far. Also needs to go outside more to offer crosses for Keds. Lee 8 - Just reminds me of Hess in his pomp. Tenacious tackler, good passer and with a bit of ability on the ball. He also reminds me of Hess because he gets booked too much. We were a poorer side when he got injured. Payne 8 - If people didn't see it Saturday, they should have last night. The boy is class with the ability to play at a higher level. Our playmaker from deep, our holding midfielder and made some superb challenges in the middle. Good a "good" booking. Montrose 5 - Needs to do more for me. Goal apart on Saturday, he looks a really good stylish footballer who can tackle, pass etc. I just don't see him doing masses in the game. Nowhere near as effective as the others or as he was in pre-season. Needs to step it up. Spiller 7 - Supports Kedwell well and engine is amazing the way he also got back to protect Martin. Spends too much time infield limiting our width, but I think he's being told to do that tactically. Kedwell 8 - tireless, could have scored, held ball up brilliantly, brought others into play when service wasn't great. If I'm being harsh, should have scored from header. Hope he gets off the mark soon because he deserves to. More mobile than Bayo and a definite improvement, though whether he's £100k's worth of improvement will be decided by how many goals he gets.
Subs: Weston 5 - Last seasons model played last night, not Saturday's. Shame. I want to see an in form Weston in the team playing off Keds. Payne 4 - I've not given him a 4 for the way he ran around, the fact his pace caused some problems for Brighton, its the fact he should have been sent off for a tackle he didn't need to make. Remember he ruined his loan spell at Braintree with something dumb? Needs to sort himself out, but also worth giving some decent time on the pitch because he has pace to burn and might worry league 2 defences with Keds. I'd like to see him given 20-30 mins more often. Fish - Not giving him a rating as not on for long enough, but I don't think there's any doubt he's better going forward than Fuller. Whether hes better at the back is a question we need to see more of him to know. If he is on a level with Fuller defensively, he plays. Simple.
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Post by nickthehoover on Aug 10, 2011 17:09:34 GMT 1
A 10 out of 10 means EVERYTHING has gone absolutely perfectly and nothing has gone wrong at all. A win last night would have been a 9 or 10 out of 10, depending on the score. If we'd scored two goals after going 1-0 down thanks to Hessenthaler's substitutions and change of emphasis, that's a 10/10. A 9/10 is the next best thing to that. Was he really that good? Not being funny, but regardless of the opposition, we had seven players booked, lost and didn't create a wealth of chances. For a 10/10, I'd have wanted Brighton outplayed, so the fact we were on the back foot for large portions suggests 9/10 is OTT. Most reports I've read say that Spiller was not much cop, there was little width, we need another striker. Even the man chucking out the high score says we need to do more from set-pieces. I wouldn't even know where to start with rating the manager, but to say that his performance was 10% away from being absolutely flawless seems a bit on the ridiculous side to me... Here is how I justify in giving Hessenthaler a 9/10 for last night's game. The first half was almost a masterclass in how to defend the 18 yard box and stop the opposition creating chances. While we sacrificed possession it was very obvious that Hess had worked a lot on our defensive set up to stop opponents creating chances. This is shown in little details such as the gap between full back and centre back, which was always spot on last night and also how far J.Payne was away from the centre halfs. These are little things which the manager has to take the credit for because that is his job, to make sure the team are organised when they enter the field. Furthermore, I thought as a whole Hess got his game plan spot on last night. As was shown last season teams that took the game to Brighton were completely blown away and hence the decision to press less ensured that while it may be a less entertaining game, we had a better chance of winning the match. However a marked difference from last season and Stimson's teams is how much passion and desire there is in the team. Yes, this can spill over into yellow cards however that is where it is up to the players, especially senior players to control, but you can tell that the dressing room is full of men now, who are not going to spit their dummy's out of the pram like Gowling and McCammon did last season. Hessenthaler has to take the credit for this as it obviously creates a more positive atmosphere in the dressing room. Consequently, last night showed why I really think we will have a successful, promotion winning season this year, and Hessenthaler has to take a lot of credit for that.
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Post by jaggysnake on Aug 11, 2011 7:42:45 GMT 1
'A masterclass'? My god.
I think everyone - myself included - acknowledges that we are a little more solid at the back this term, but my concern is at what cost to our attacking threat? It's what happens at both ends of the pitch that gets you promoted and I genuinely think on the back of a 1-0 win over a poor side which not many people were raving about and a DEFEAT in the League Cup, you are getting carried away.
Yes, Brighton are a good side. Yes, it would have been a shock had we won, but a few League Two teams were away to Championship sides and a handful of them won. It's not like we were playing Barcelona for God's sake. Less than two years ago, we were in the same division as Brighton, and although they and their fortunes have markedly improved, it wasn't an impossible dream to get a result there.
'Game plan spot on'?! WE LOST. A game plan that is spot on would result in a win. Or at least scoring a goal at some juncture.
And as for the yellow cards, given that our most senior player is the worst offender of them all, that's not going to happen. Again, hessisgod says the ref was card happy. You don't give him an excuse to flash his cards then. And all this surrounding the ref has to stop - he's not going to change his mind because Matthew Lawrence tells him he's wrong. Pulis' Gills team had a reputation that went before it and it got decisions against it because of it. Yes, it was a successful side, but it had a million miles more quality than this team. To fans of other clubs, we - and Pulis for that matter - are still thought of as dirty and this current team are doing us no favours.
And all this bollocks about Stimson has got to stop now. The bloke left well over a year ago and is in our history. You all blame him for our failure to get promoted last year and a lack of fight and spirit. Simple fact is, he got us out of the division at the first attempt playing decent football. I'd watch his 2009 vintage over Hessenthaler's 2011 any day of the week. The bloke had his faults, yes, but at least it was entertaining to watch.
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Post by nickthehoover on Aug 11, 2011 16:56:15 GMT 1
I would say that there has actually been a huge improvement in our defensive shape since last season, and considering 3 of the back 4 were part of the shaky defence last season, it shows that the manager has worked incredibly hard on how we set up and he should take the plaudits for this. Up until the penalty they did not create a clear cut chance all game, which shows that the work on the defence had quelled Brighton's threat as effectively as we possibly could have done.
However, do we really want to be posing too much of an attacking threat against teams like Brighton if it meant we would be looser at the back? I would say no, as last season proved with the number of goals that they scored that when playing Brighton defensive shape is the most important thing - as evidenced by the sheer number of goals scored by the likes of Elliott Bennett from midfield. Consequently, if we had any hope of coming away with a place in the second round then we had to first and foremost get our defensive shape right.
Jaggy, For a game plan to be successful it dosn't necessarily mean that we will win the game. If we follow your suggestions, then we should radically change the makeup of the team both tactically and in terms of personnel because we lost. That surely cannot be the right way to go at all, because it would lead to having no game plan whatsoever as it would be always changing.
Moreover, unlike you I seem to accept that we will get yellow cards at times - Jack Payne's was a classic example of taking one for the team. However I also have reservations about all this crowding round the ref - as a Ref myself it annoys me and you need to be strong not to be influenced by the vocal Lawrence and Frampton throughout the game. But because of the makeup of our team we will get more yellows than usual due to the nature of players like Charlie Lee, Barry Fuller and Jack Payne, who base an awful lot of their game on tackling and run the risk that if they mistime just one then they could be yellow carded.
Oh, and I only mentioned Stimson to draw a comparison between his team that was promoted and our current side, due to the differing styles. You may like the expansive style we had in 2009, where we may have won some games and got in the play offs but we also had a couple of 3-0 defeats and a 7-0 on the way. However I think that our current side is far more able to mount a real push for automatic promotion through being extremely hard to play against, which comes from the defensive shape which Hessenthaler seems to have addressed as effectively as possible over the Summer.
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Post by jaggysnake on Aug 11, 2011 21:34:46 GMT 1
I don't have time to construct a long reply, but you are putting ideas in my head. I don't want us to change the whole team and set up on the back of a 1-0 loss at Brighton. That would be truly ridiculous. But the point I am trying to make is that you are hailing Hessenthaler as almost perfect and his game plan as spot on. When we lost. Take every other factor out of it and you will realise you are talking nonsense.
On the bookings, again, I don't expect us to be utter saints, but averaging five yellows a game is not big or clever.
And I'm sure I don't need to point out the following:
I will gladly take a 7-0 defeat if at the end of the season we get promoted.
Last year we lost 7-4 at bloody Accrington Stanley. And didn't get promoted either.
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Post by jaybo on Aug 11, 2011 21:42:21 GMT 1
The point is hessy has the players playing for him this season and that is clear for all to see due to a good pre season and more importantly some excellent new signings and re structure e.g. frampton as captain. Also, you cannot fault the manager if the players perform very well and show some effort and passion which starts with hessy himself. Also, our best spell was just after half time up until the penalty so clealry there were some positive and effective words said at half time like pushing whelpdale and spiller farward to avoid them taking the short goal kick.
I don't really mind the yellow because this is hessy's team with hessenthaler type players and teams will fear coming to priestfield. Also, this is why I believe we will be very strong away from home because we can look after ourselves better this year and can compete because we have winners /leaders right the way through the team.
UTG!!
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Post by johnknee on Aug 12, 2011 7:08:09 GMT 1
I don't have time to construct a long reply, but you are putting ideas in my head. I don't want us to change the whole team and set up on the back of a 1-0 loss at Brighton. That would be truly ridiculous. But the point I am trying to make is that you are hailing Hessenthaler as almost perfect and his game plan as spot on. When we lost. Take every other factor out of it and you will realise you are talking nonsense. On the bookings, again, I don't expect us to be utter saints, but averaging five yellows a game is not big or clever. And I'm sure I don't need to point out the following: I will gladly take a 7-0 defeat if at the end of the season we get promoted. Last year we lost 7-4 at bloody Accrington Stanley. And didn't get promoted either. I think the point is that our plan to not concede, keep a clean sheet and go through on penalties if we don't sneak anything kinda worked very well. The problem is that we conceded a soft penalty which cannot be accounted for on the tactics board. Even defending for other set pieces like corners can be worked on in training - not a penalty. Hence, Hess's tactics was almost spot on.
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